Curse

Paloma Song · Apr 24, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

"We" is all those that strongly believed that GW would go 'pay once' forever, as they always said.

There is no ANET policy as to paying once, forever. No one's ever said that, no one's even intimated that. How you extracted that belief out of a business model based around selling continued expansions, weapon packs, skill unlocks, and mini-quests, frankly defies comprehension.

I'm all for microtransactions. Face it, entitlement generation, you loons who think all things should be free: the people with more money than time, who pay for these vanity items and unlock packs, are paying your way in this game.

Daesu · Apr 24, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

"We" is all those that strongly believed that GW would go 'pay once' forever, as they always said.

You should go back to games like load runner or pac-man which are strictly 'pay once' forever.

Just dont complain about the lack of game updates or server time.

-Sonata- · Apr 24, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I feel there are two key words to all of this:

"Having"

and

"Advantageous".

This quote was key.

Quote:

but if I'm a new player looking to purchase a game that claims quite boldly that you pay a single fee and you get access to the game withouthaving to purchase anything else... only to login and indeed see an entire menu filled with optional things to purchase... well it all seems a bit misleading to me.

Forgive me, but I disagree and I highlighted the phrases as to why.

I would agree if, as a new player, I were to log-in and see items in which were necessary to purchase in order to complete the game. If it cost me an additional $5 to complete Hell's Precipe, Anet and I would have some serious issues with one another.

That isn't the case though. Just as you stated in your post, the menu is filled with optional purchases. They do not prevent the vetern, or new player, from experiencing the full game of Guild Wars. By not making those purchases, you're not being denied any less service to the game. The box statement remains truth. I am, still, not required to ever pay a fee to continue to access Guild Wars.

Many have asked where the line is drawn, but unfortunately only individuals can answer that based on their own thoughts. Only Anet knows where their line will be eventually drawn. My hope their line is the same as mine.

My line is drawn when it comes to items and/or content that provides a significant and obvious advantage to those who makes purchases, while on the flipside of that coin, restricts, or hinders, gameplay for those who don't.

For example:

If this update suddenly provided Daggers with max damage of 7-22 and these daggers were only available in the item shop, customized with a +30% dmg mod, offered double inscription slots and couldn't be traded, that would provide a clear advantage to the item shopper. I'm not talking about pretty skins that don't change a thing, other than someones personal jealousy level. I mean clear, advantageous, items.

If this update suddenly provided class armor with a 10 point higher max for all classes and these sets were only available in the item shop, that would provide a significant advantage to the item shopper.

If this update offered skills (elite, or otherwise) only available in the item shop, that provides a significant advantage to the item shopper.

Once item shops begin selling exclusive items of mechanics the game is no longer about skill, or about technique and teams. It turns into who has the fattest online wallet to stock up on exclusive powerful goods like most F2P games with cash shops. You would see PvP would become even more unbalanced as your best teams wouldn't be based on their access to the same skills as everyone else, but to the teams who best unloaded income into exclusive items from the mall.

As nice as an extra pane of storage may be, that extra pane doesn't provide you anything more than I already have. I can still store items and so can you. Your sword is still the same as mine. Your armor is still the same as mine.

I doubt I'll be losing in a match because my opposition has 6 panes of storage to my 4.

If Anet ever decided to start selling such things in their store, I would 100% agree - They have lost all sight in their model and Guild Wars would all but destroy the basis and intent of their original success.

Quote:

How much you love your character has an effect on how much you want to continue playing the game.

Not all players see it this way, I agree. But I do know there is a lot who love the RP side.

I, too, love the RP side of games and I agree. My character, "Sonata", has a long written story and emotive side that has continually expanded over the years I've been playing her and when I played her. As such, when creating the character for PvE and taking into consideration what I wanted "Sonata" to be, I took great care and significant time in adjusting what I felt was needed for this character upon creation. That way (obviously before this update) I would not find myself in a situation where I was displeased with the characters vanity. Two years later, there's not a thing I would change on her. Even if I changed her hair color "Sonata" wouldn't be "Sonata" anymore.

Ensign · Apr 25, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Microtransactions are awesome for this game and I heartily approve of this update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raccoon

Tedious and cheap updates like the Nick and Yakkington will not stop people form going to other games that are releasing proper content.

Like?

pumpkin pie · Apr 25, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I just try and be realistic.I realize that as much as we like things to be the same as they were, circumstances sometimes change things. I am sure ANET had no idea the world economy would crash and burn when they released their game 4 years ago. There is an evolution happening with MMO's where micro-transactions are much more prevalent today than they were in years past. I can go along with them as long as it doesn't affect my ability to play the game without them.

RR, no one knows how the economy would be in 2009 back in 2005, but, please don't use that as an excuse, if you read the news, mmorpg is one of the industry that is the least affected by the current economy crisis, infact they are the industries on the rise.

Quote:

**NCSOFT RALLIES AHEAD OF GAME LAUNCHING IN CHINA**

Shares in online game developer and publisher NCSoft Corp is headed for the third consecutive gaining session, rising 5.63 percent to 99,400 won on expectations of strong performance of its 'Aion' game in China.

NCSoft traded as high as 99,900 won, its highest since November, 2005.

MMORPGs and the great recession

Guild Wars 6 million strong

Legion Magnus · Apr 25, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

I agree, the OP's points are thoughtful and well-stated.

But, just in my humble opinion ...

It utterly amazes me that anyone is willing to pay recurring costs for any game. I can live with the fact that an occasional Chapter comes out, that, with significant content, I'm willing to pay for, if purchased from a reliable source, which I can trust to forever protect my account and CC info.

But micro-transactions, monthly subscription fees, etc. - not for me. I get that ongoing improvements require some financial stimulus to support them. New unit sales should have covered this, IMO (6 Million and counting). The desire to remain competitive should have been sufficient. I look back over the years and do not recall any intra-chapter, epic change that warranted additional out-of-pocket costs. I'm not in either camp that chants A-Net needs the money to survive, or GW2 will suffer if we do not give until it hurts. Again, simply stating my opinion.

Though I recognize the irony of this statement, I see a strong comparison of this issue to that of paying for cable TV. Yes, it has improved over the years, but we have become addicted to ever spiraling costs - once we were hooked. It has sadly become the accepted norm. I can remember the days when cable TV was touted as 'completely commercial free', AND IT WAS (please don't get me started on the whole signature 'bugs' issue).

And I can also remember the days when showing 20 year old movies in a constant loop wasn't what premium cable TV was about. Yet another related comparison: pay-per-view/On Demand movies - never bought one. But I digress ...

I'm not sure I truly believe this BUT, I wonder how many improvements which people have clamored for (myself included) may have been held up waiting for a strategic opportunity to roll out mega-upgrades for $$$. How many could have been released earlier as 'free' enhancements for customer goodwill? Note, I do not begrudge A-Net from making additional revenue, I simply don't like the way this has come down.

After four mostly glorious years of playing GW I think it has turned a big corner this day. Even with these OPTIONAL items that I am not forced to purchase in any way, I am saddened by these changes. A glimpse at the inglorious future to come.

Will I stop playing, probably not. Will I buy GW2 when it comes out in 2023, possibly, depends on the access/usage requirements. Will I purchase items through the In Game/NC Soft Store - Magic 8-Ball says "Outlook not so good".

For those that revel in these changes, I wish you the best and truly hope the future is kind to us all. I expect to be in a minority opinion on this matter. Those who can step back and see the big picture may yet agree with me. We stand before the precipice (at Thermopylae, I fear).

R.I.P. That Which Was Guild Wars, 2005 - 2009

Improvavel · Apr 25, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Interestingly I've been able to change the appearance of my characters and their names for free in the last 4 years - its called the delete and then create process.

Guild Wars for long only sported a single pane in the xunlai storage. Then came 3 more panes and the materials. FREE.

Again they added material backpacks (yes its a bit too grindy and should work with runes to make larger bags instead of "save for a larger bag and don't enjoy the space or enjoy the space and take forever to get the large bag") and another pane for FREE.

Yes completely free is a lot better from my point of view, but most of what been added is just for the comfort of time saving.

People already bought new accounts and character slots (and people that have the 25 max character slots can now have extra storage without buying a new account). The only difference is u pay more per space but its a lot easier to keep tabs on ur stuff.

As long its stuff that is only for comfort I don't mind. Its optional and only gives comfort and/or saves time. But time is money so its acceptable that to save time you cna spend money.

TL,DR - The opposite of having to pay for these new features is not having them, its not having them for free.

Apollo Smile · Apr 25, 2009, 08:53 AM // 08:53

The last time ArenaNet got any money from me was a year and a half ago, when I bought EOTN. For a year and a half I have played on their game servers for free. They have had updates (Smaller ones obviously, they are hard at work on Guild Wars 2), holiday events, bug fixes, skill adjustments, and ran contests. They even set up a Live Team, just to focus on GW1 until GW2 gets here. None of that costed me a dime. Now I am supposed to feel robbed and betrayed because they are OFFERING $10-$15 optional, non game-breaking, luxury features?

This is a transitional phase for both ArenaNet and us, the players. I feel it is jumping the gun to assume this is an acurate representation of GW2's business model. Every interview I have read since GW2 has been announced had stayed firm to fact that Guild Wars 2 will be supported by expansions/campaigns with no monthly fees. Will there be a few optional microtransactions like GW1? Probably. Will microtransactions be the focus? I honestly don't believe they will. Let me finish by asking you this. How many new features added with Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North had to be bought seperately from the campaigns?

pumpkin pie · Apr 25, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

If you want to jump into this discussion please read, don't assume its just another boycott. If you have read thrugh the thread, you will Please Note that my first respond to this thread is Guild Wars is not Free.

Then I proceed to say I paid for every possible packs, game of the year, character slots for 2 full complete accounts myself. I have more, but that other account was a gift and its also full complete account maintain by another party for me, also with extra character slots. Is that FREE?

I am against Guild Wars going into the micro-transaction business Model. The makeover, extreme makeover and name change are micro transactions. you have to keep buying it if you want to use it. What I want is for anything available to purchase in the online store to be MARK AS PURCHASED ONCE YOU BUY IT. Don't tell me the game is FREE, its not free for you, its not free for me. WE PAID. According to their "genius" way of developing the game, no monthly fees is not free either, if you look at it this way: when the bandwidth isn't used in the first place, there's no cost incurred, if there's no cost incurred, how is there a fees to be paid? I know they can very well choose to charge a monthly subscription fees without even telling us there's no bandwidth issue, BUT, remember, this is what sells Guild Wars, without it, most people who subscribe would be playing WoW since obviously figures shown, WoW has more subscribers then Guild Wars, this no monthly fees features is an advertising tool, is the Ace in their hand of cards, whatever you want to called it. A Gimmick. That is why it has made it so much more easier when They put up Stuffs for sale on their online store, players buy it without questioning, because everyone thinks the game is free without considering that we have already paid for it.

Apollo Smile · Apr 25, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

I'm confused Pumpkin... Was that in reply to my statement of the guy above me?

If it was to me, well try reading again. Never did I state you don't pay money for the games.

pumpkin pie · Apr 25, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Because forum jumpers don't read, Apollo Smile, and the way you responded to the thread might make these people think differently, and I had to make it clear what it really is about.

PS: the first time when i see this: tl;dr, short for too long didn't read, I had to look it up on the web, that is basically what I mean by forum jumpers, the tldrers. So when you made a blanket statements that says Guild Wars is Free, I just had to jump in and clarify it once again. It wasn't actually directed at you.

Sorry Apollo Smile if I've miss-read you.

Fril Estelin · Apr 25, 2009, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

you made a blanket statements that says Guild Wars is Free, I just had to jump in and clarify it once again.

Language shortcut: "free" as in "free to play" as in "buy it once and then don't pay monthly fees".

I quite like the name "buy to play" or b2p.

CyberNigma · Apr 25, 2009, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Well, I'd get used to paying for DLC. It may not be quite as common in the western PC marketpace yet, but it's very common (and appears to be very popular) in the console game marketplace around the world, including western markets. If you browse Xbox Live Marketplace or Playstation Store for add-ons/DLC, you'll see that it is everywhere for many, many games.

In fact, many of us come to expect new games to have DLC available in the near future, which takes the place of content between seques. Some stuff I don't mind paying for and have paid for (Fallout 3 add-ons, MechAssault add-ons, the list goes on and on), while other things I refuse (horse armor for Oblivion for example).

There are some unofficial rules that console gamers expect the publishers to go by, though, such as ensuring they do not skimp on the original game content in order to sell more DLC. DLC should be above and beyond a full game - something they develop after the game is done and out the door. People aren't too happy when they buy a game and then are presented with 'DLC' that is actually already on the disc. That's just being cheap. As with anything like that, DLC is always optional though, not detrimental to the core game.

There is always the possibility of player-created content such as games like NWN and the new enhancements to CoH/CoV, which usually end up free, but hit or miss as far as quality control goes.

Apollo Smile · Apr 25, 2009, 10:28 AM // 10:28

I understand you, Pumpkin. Free to Play IS Guild Wars' Ace in hand. They want the consumer to feel like they are getting a value, and quite frankly they are. That isn't a trick. I play WoW, and can say, YES it does have more content than Guild Wars currently. It also cost me triple of what the entire Guild Wars Series cost. It all comes down to what the consumer wants to invest in games.

GW1 is minimal in microtransactions and I believe GW2 will actually have LESS, due to the fact they won't be in a transitional limbo, they will make money from new expansions just like they did for this game up til' Eye of the North. Most of the cash shop stuff that people are up in arms about was added after EOTN. I don't want Guild Wars to be a microtransaction-fest myself, but I feel people are blowing it way out of proportion. If ArenaNet was to offer stronger weapons, better armor, exclusive pets, mounts, exp/rep scrolls, THEN would be the time to complain. Things like buying character slots and other server space based things are NOT going to go away, that will just have to be dealt with.

Fril Estelin · Apr 25, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

It all comes down to what the consumer wants to invest in games.

And what they want to get from it. Just finished the 3 dailies, it's getting me a bit on the way to get equipment pack, but most importantly I had a lot of fun, from Rocktail and Blacktide Den HM with almost full parties to very cool AB games. You get factions, money, coins, drops, this is where the game gets really to life and we're on the better side of the game replayability.

Got my 10 gifts of the travellers with cool stuff, nothing amazing until I get mini Gwen-chan

but still cool. And for free, completely free.

In all honesty, rarely has a product given so much value for money. That's why I was ready to give a little bit more for a storage pane, but I'll wait for another opportunity.

On the other hand, if you're into player customisation (RP comes to mind), I guess you may or may not welcome the $10 pricetag.

ogre_jd · Apr 25, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

It's been ages since we've had new armor and, considering how much work it would take to do a complete set of quality male and female armor for each profession, I'd be willing to fork over for it (though I think it'd take something really special for my Warrior to change from his regular Templar and my Ranger to change from his Krytan

), same as I did over on City of Heroes for a costume pack (well, it also contained a power that can be used, but I like the costume bits better) last month...

(and, yes, I'd be willing to pay the normal crafting fees/materials for armor unlocked this way, as long as it was available at every armor crafter at each level/tier; same would go for weapon skins packs, though their crafters/collectors would need a filter to block out the stuff for other professions, just for the sake of our sanity when looking at the list

)

In short, micro-transactions for new vanity content/cosmetic character changes and to make available the goodies from various boxed editions (eg, the GotY pack and Fire Imp) = good. Micro-transactions for new zones and mission packs (including the BMP, though I did get that as part of the Factions Platinum Edition - but, unlike the Imp, it's not included with every new edition of the boxed version) = bad.

*Darcy* · Apr 25, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Just like the real world, there are people who are willing to pay for conveniences and others who think they are entitled to everything for free.

ArenaNet has kept to their Free-to-Play business model and, on a regular basis, repeat that GW2 will use that same business model. If they want to make available non-necessary changes for your account for a fee, how does that change the business model.

I have seen players posting constantly in Sardelac that they would pay anything to change their characters appearance or gender, to obtain more storage or to get more things to do. And ArenaNet has made all those wishes come true.

If it means charging real world cash to fund the game and GW2 development, I am not complaining. I also, so far, haven't purchased anything. I don't need more storage at the moment (the free pane was great) and I am happy with my characters' appearance and names (didn't name them something at age 13 that now seems ridiculous).

I am not afraid of the future with ANet. They have always tried to give us what we want without changing the basic game. It is still skill over time. It is still a level playing field. I don't believe that GW2 will be any different.

Fitz Rinley · Apr 25, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

I agree with JR for the most part. The only place where we might differ is "content." Everything else is spot on.

I would however use a qualifier for additional game content for sale, one that is exactly like the bonus mission pack. That pack was a story line kicker for transitions, to show what GW could pick up and run with, and how GW 2 might pick up on other incomplete stories or unexplored lore. It does nothing to alter the principle game and provides no reward that cannot be duplicated in the game. Infrequent additional packs that will enhance the appetite of the player base by doing nothing to unbalance the game play and providing small story connection are not a bad thing. They should not become a quarterly or bi-yearly release, as well as a drain on man-power, which would undercut the principle of the Free to Play model in spirit.

AmbientMelody · Apr 26, 2009, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I agree with JR for the most part. The only place where we might differ is "content." Everything else is spot on.

I would however use a qualifier for additional game content for sale, one that is exactly like the bonus mission pack. That pack was a story line kicker for transitions, to show what GW could pick up and run with, and how GW 2 might pick up on other incomplete stories or unexplored lore. It does nothing to alter the principle game and provides no reward that cannot be duplicated in the game. Infrequent additional packs that will enhance the appetite of the player base by doing nothing to unbalance the game play and providing small story connection are not a bad thing. They should not become a quarterly or bi-yearly release, as well as a drain on man-power, which would undercut the principle of the Free to Play model in spirit.

People. Will you on this bloody earth stop messing f2p with b2p? Everyone who plays this game has essentially paid for it. In f2p the only thing you have to do is register an account, download game and play.

There is no need for a customer who bought a game to be grateful that the game is ******* alive and still attractive to new players, as well as being grateful that there are any updates, fixes and such.

YOU HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR IT.

Telling someone who has bought every single campaign, eotn and bmp that he is playing 'free-to-play' game and that he should be essentially grateful that there was any update at all (lol?) is just plain silly.

People, grow up.

Guild Wars IS NOT free to play.
Guild Wars IS NOT free to play.
Guild Wars IS NOT free to play.
Guild Wars IS NOT free to play.
Guild Wars IS NOT free to play.
Guild Wars IS NOT free to play.

Once you understand this simple principle you will see clearly what a customer should expect a company he bought a product from in terms of quality service and content that keeps game attractive.

Anet is not a charity company. You pay your hard-earned money for their games, which essentially are advertised as b2p game.

If you have too much money in your wallet that's fine, but don't insist that Anet will go bankrupt if they don't resort to cheap microtransactions tactics like in this update. Also, don't be fooled that it costed them god-knows-how much money. And finally, stop believing that p2p model for a mmo is something normal. It is just as normal as other business models like b2p and f2p.

I see no reason to pay for content which I have the right for since I bought the game just because someone on the top is greedy and thought it would be cool to drain your money before you are allowed to play and then drain your money for the game to be enjoyable.

What right now happens is misleading propaganda saying that if game is not p2p then you should be grateful that anything is happening in the game. Wrong ... it's them who should be grateful that new players buy their game and it's their job to keep game attractive both for new and existing players. It's because MMO will never be successful with sick community.

Remember, you have paid for this game. And now they offer you something which essentially shouldn't cost you a cent because it's content for which you have already paid - said makeovers. Not to mention it's core gameplay and flavour, not some not-necessary-to-enjoy content like BMP.

pumpkin pie · Apr 26, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Thank you Ambient Melody lol. Guild Wars is not Free to Play, it is Buy to Pay without Subscription Fees.

I am pretty sure whatever is for sale in the online store now, is not going to go away.

I want to make emphasis to ArenaNet that Micro-transaction is not the way to go for Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2. Please do not go down that road, your wanting us to link our GW account to NCSoft Store account is VERY SUSPICIOUS, that might make someone like me think you are planning to put up more stuffs for sale in your micro-transaction scheme.